Xu Wugui
卷婁者,舜也。羊肉不慕蟻,蟻慕羊肉,羊肉羶也。舜有羶行,百姓悅之,故三徙成都,至鄧之虛而十有萬家。堯聞舜之賢,舉之童土之地,曰冀得其來之澤。舜舉乎童土之地,年齒長矣,聰明衰矣,而不得休歸,所謂卷婁者也。
The bent-backed one is Shun. Mutton does not envy ants, but ants envy mutton, because mutton smells strong. Shun had a strong smell in his conduct, and the people delighted in him, so he moved three times and each place became a city, and by the ruins of Deng there were a hundred thousand households. Yao heard that Shun was worthy and raised him from the wasteland, saying he hoped to gain the grace that would come with him. Shun was raised from the wasteland, but his years grew long and his clarity declined, and he could not rest and go back; this is the so-called bent-backed one.
是以神人惡眾至,眾至則不比,不比則不利也。故無所甚親,無所甚疏,抱德煬和以順天下,此謂真人。於蟻棄知,於魚得計,於羊棄意。
So the divine man dislikes the multitude coming; when the multitude comes they do not cling, and if they do not cling there is no benefit. So he has no special intimates and no special strangers, embraces virtue and basks in harmony to accord with all under Heaven; this is called the true man. Toward ants he discards knowledge; toward fish he gains a plan; toward sheep he discards intention.
以目視目,以耳聽耳,以心復心。若然者,其平也繩,其變也循。古之真人,以天待(之)[人],不以人入天。古之真人,得之也生,失之也死;得之也死,失之也生。
Seeing with the eye, hearing with the ear, and returning the mind to the mind. For one like this, his evenness is like a plumb line and his change is like following. The true men of old treated people with Heaven, and did not use people to enter Heaven. The true men of old: gaining it was life and losing it was death; gaining it was death and losing it was life.
藥也其實,堇也,桔梗也,雞也,豕零也,是時為帝者也,何可勝言!
As for medicine, in fact it is aconite, balloon flower, euryale seed and polyporus; these take turns as the chief in their seasons, and how could they be exhausted!
句踐也以甲楯三千棲於會稽。唯種也能知亡之所以存,唯種也不知其身之所以愁。故曰,鴟目有所適,鶴脛有所節,解之也悲。
Goujian, with three thousand armored men with shields, took refuge on Kuaiji. Only Wen Zhong could know how the lost could be preserved, and only Wen Zhong did not know why he himself would come to grief. So it is said that the owl's eye has what suits it, the crane's shank has its proper length, and to unfasten it is to grieve.
故曰,風之過河也有損焉,日之過河也有損焉。請只風與日相與守河,而河以為未始其攖也,恃源而往者也。故水之守土也審,影之守人也審,物之守物也審。
So it is said that wind passing over a river loses something, and the sun passing over a river loses something. Let the wind and the sun guard the river together, and the river considers that it was never disturbed, and flows relying on its source. So water guarding earth is careful, shadow guarding a person is careful, and things guarding things are careful.
故目之於明也殆,耳之於聰也殆,心之於殉也殆。凡能其於府也殆,殆之成也不給改。禍之長也茲萃,其反也緣功,其果也待久。而人以為己寶,不亦悲乎!故有亡國戮民無已,不知問是也。
So the eye is in danger from brightness, the ear is in danger from keenness, and the mind is in danger from being sacrificed to things. Those who are capable in storehouses and treasuries are in danger, and once the danger is made it is too late to correct. Calamity grows and gathers more, its return follows achievement, and its result takes long to wait for. And people treat it as their treasure; is that not sad! So there is the ruin of states and slaughter of people without end, and they do not know to ask about this.
故足之於地也踐,雖踐,恃其所不蹍而後善博也;人之於知也少,雖少,恃其所不知而後知天之所謂也。知大一,知大陰,知大目,知大均,知大方,知大信,知大定,至矣。大一通之,大陰解之,大目視之,大均緣之,大方體之,大信稽之,大定持之。
So the foot treads on the earth; though it treads, it relies on what it does not tread to be able to be broad and wide; a person's knowledge is little; though little, it relies on what he does not know to know what Heaven means. To know the Great One, to know the Great Yin, to know the Great Eye, to know the Great Equality, to know the Great Square, to know the Great Trust, to know the Great Stillness is the utmost. The Great One connects it, the Great Yin unfastens it, the Great Eye sees it, the Great Equality follows it, the Great Square embodies it, the Great Trust tests it, and the Great Stillness holds it.
盡有天,循有照,冥有樞,始有彼。則其解之也似不解之者,其知之也似不知之也,不知而後知之。其問之也,不可以有崖,而不可以無崖。頡滑有實,古今不代,而不可以虧,則可不謂有大揚搉乎!闔不亦問是已,奚惑然為!以不惑解惑,復於不惑,是尚大不惑。
Heaven is exhausted and has it, following has illumination, the obscure has the pivot, and the beginning has the other. Then to unfasten it is like not unfastening it, to know it is like not knowing it, and only after not knowing does one know it. Asking about it, it cannot have a limit, and cannot be without a limit. The tangled has substance, past and present do not replace one another, and it cannot be diminished, so can one fail to say there is a great outline! Why not ask about this too, why be so bewildered! To resolve bewilderment with non-bewilderment and return to non-bewilderment is still great non-bewilderment.
Ze Yang
Chapter 25: Ze Yang
則陽遊於楚,夷節言之於王,王未之見,夷節歸。
Ze Yang traveled in Chu, and Yi Jie spoke of him to the king, but the king did not see him, and Yi Jie went back.
彭陽見王果曰:「夫子何不譚我於王?」
Peng Yang saw Wang Guo and said: "Master, why do you not speak of me to the king?"
王果曰:「我不若公閱休。」
Wang Guo said: "I am not equal to Gong Yuexiu."
彭陽曰:「公閱休奚為者邪?」
Peng Yang said: "What does Gong Yuexiu do?"
曰:「冬則擉鼈於江,夏則休乎山樊。有過而問者,曰:『此予宅也。』夫夷節已不能,而況我乎!吾又不若夷節。夫夷節之為人也,無德而有知,不自許,以之神其交固,顛冥乎富貴之地,非相助以德,相助消也。夫凍者假衣於春,暍者反冬乎冷風。夫楚王之為人也,形尊而嚴;其於罪也,無赦如虎;非夫佞人正德,其孰能橈焉!
(Wang Guo) said: "In winter he spears turtles in the river, and in summer he rests by the mountain hedge. If someone passes by and asks, he says: 'This is my house.' Yi Jie already could not do it, so how could I! And I am not equal to Yi Jie. As a person, Yi Jie has no virtue but has knowledge, does not allow himself, and with this makes his associates marvelous and firm, topsy-turvy in places of wealth and rank, not helping one another by virtue but helping one another to wear down. Those who are cold borrow clothes from spring, and those who are heatstruck instead ask winter for cool wind. The King of Chu, as a person, is noble in form and stern; toward crimes he does not pardon, like a tiger; if not a flatterer or one of upright virtue, who could move him?
故聖人,其窮也使家人忘其貧,其達也使王公忘爵祿而化卑。其於物也,與之為娛矣;其於人也,樂物之通而保己焉;故或不言而飲人以和,與人並立而使人化。父子之宜,彼其乎歸居,而一閒其所施。其於人心者若是其遠也。故曰待公閱休。」
(Wang Guo continued:) So the sage, in poverty, makes his family forget poverty, and in success makes kings and dukes forget their rank and salary and become humble. Toward things, he takes joy in them together; toward people, he delights in the freedom of things and preserves himself; so sometimes without speaking he gives people harmony to drink, standing alongside people he lets them transform. In the suitability of father and son, he is as in a retired home, and puts his giving aside in one place at leisure. He is so far from the human heart. So it is said to wait for Gong Yuexiu."
聖人達綢繆,周盡一體矣,而不知其然,性也。復命搖作而以天為師,人則從而命之也。憂乎知而所行恆無幾時,其有止也若之何!
The sage penetrates and understands intricacies, is all-encompassing and complete in one body, and does not know why it is so; this is nature. In returning to his mandate and in action he takes Heaven as teacher, and people then name him accordingly. Being anxious over knowledge, what he does lasts but a short time; what does it matter if he says it has a stop!
生而美者,人與之鑑,不告則不知其美於人也。若知之,若不知之,若聞之,若不聞之,其可喜也終無已,人之好之亦無已,性也。聖人之愛人也,人與之名,不告則不知其愛人也。若知之,若不知之,若聞之,若不聞之,其愛人也終無已,人之安之亦無已,性也。
One who is born beautiful is given a mirror by others, and without being told does not know that he is more beautiful than others. As though knowing, as though not knowing, as though hearing, as though not hearing, his delightfulness never ends, and people's liking never ends; this is nature. The sage loves people, and people give him a name, and without being told he does not know he loves people. As though knowing, as though not knowing, as though hearing, as though not hearing, his love for people never ends, and people's contentment with him never ends; this is nature.
舊國舊都,望之暢然;雖使丘陵草木之緡,入之者十九,猶之暢然。況見見聞聞者也,以十仞之臺縣眾閒者也。
An old state and old capital: when seen, one feels at ease; even if hills and grasses and trees cover and block it, nine out of ten who enter still feel at ease. How much more with what one sees as one sees it and hears as one hears it, like a ten-ren terrace hung amid the people.
冉相氏得其環中以隨成,與物無終無始,無幾無時。日與物化者,一不化者也,闔嘗舍之!夫師天而不得師天,與物皆殉,其以為事也若之何?夫聖人未始有天,未始有人,未始有始,未始有物,與世偕行而不替,所行之備而不洫,其合之也若之何?湯得其司御門尹登恆為之傅之,從師而不囿;得其隨成。為之司其名;之名嬴法,得其兩見。仲尼之盡慮,為之傅之。容成氏曰:「除日無歲,無內無外。」
Ran Xiang attained the center of the ring and followed its completion, without end or beginning with things, without seeds or seasons. Day after day transforming with things, there is one that does not transform; when has he ever abandoned it! Taking Heaven as teacher but not obtaining it, sacrificing oneself with things and making it a task, what then? The sage has never had Heaven, never had Man, never had a beginning, never had things, and travels with the world without being abandoned or replaced; what he does is complete and does not stagnate; what then of its union? Tang obtained Si Yu, the gatekeeper Deng Heng, as his tutor, followed the teacher without being confined, and obtained Sui Cheng, who managed his name for him; the name Ying Fa obtained two views. Zhongni exhausted his thoughts and served as his tutor. Rong Chengshi said: "Remove the day and there is no year, no inside and no outside."
魏瑩與田侯牟約,田侯牟背之,魏瑩怒,將使人剌之。
Wei Ying made a treaty with Marquis Mou of Tian, and Marquis Mou of Tian broke the treaty; Wei Ying was angry and was about to send someone to assassinate him.
犀首[公孫衍]聞而恥之,曰:「君為萬乘之君也,而以匹夫從讎!衍請受甲二十萬,為君攻之,虜其人民,係其牛馬,使其君內熱發於背。然後拔其國。忌也出走,然後抶其背,折其脊。」
Xishou Gongsun Yan (the source text has a gloss here: Gongsun Yan) heard of it and thought it shameful, and said: "You are the ruler of ten thousand chariots, yet you seek revenge by the means of a common man! Yan requests to receive two hundred thousand armored soldiers to attack him for you, to take his people captive, tie up his oxen and horses, and make his ruler's inner heat break out on his back. Then take his state. If Tian Ji also flees, then whip his back and break his spine."
季子聞而恥之,曰:「築十仞之城,城者既十仞矣,則又壞之,此胥靡之所苦也。今兵不起七年矣,此王之基也。衍亂人,不可聽也。」
Jizi heard of it and thought it shameful, and said: "If one builds a wall of ten ren, and the wall is already ten ren, and then tears it down, this is what convict laborers suffer. Now it has been seven years without troops being raised, and this is the king's foundation. Yan is a man of disorder and should not be listened to."
華子聞而醜之,曰:「善言伐齊者,亂人也;善言勿伐者,亦亂人也;謂伐之與不伐亂人也者,又亂人也。」
Huazi heard of it and thought it ugly, and said: "One who speaks well of attacking Qi is a man of disorder; one who speaks well of not attacking is also a man of disorder; one who says that both attacking and not attacking are men of disorder is again a man of disorder."
君曰:「然則若何?」
The ruler said: "Then what should I do?"
曰:「君求其道而已矣!」
(Huazi) said: "You should only seek the Way!"
惠子聞之而見戴晉人。戴晉人曰:「有所謂蝸者,君知之乎?」
Huizi heard of it and introduced Dai Jinren. Dai Jinren said: "There is a thing called a snail; do you know it?"
曰:「然。」
(The ruler) said: "I know it."
「有國於蝸之左角者曰觸氏,有國於蝸之右角者曰蠻氏。時相與爭地而戰,伏屍數萬,逐北旬有五日而後反。」
"There is a state on the snail's left horn called the Chu clan, and a state on the snail's right horn called the Man clan. From time to time they fight each other over land, with tens of thousands of corpses lying, and the pursuit of the defeated lasts fifteen days before they return."
君曰:「噫!其虛言與?」
The ruler said: "Hmm! Is this an empty tale?"
曰:「臣請為君實之。君以意在四方上下有窮乎?」
(Dai Jinren) said: "Allow your servant to make it real for you. Do you think, in your mind, that the four directions and up and down have an end?"
君曰:「無窮。」
The ruler said: "They have no end."
曰:「知遊心於無窮,而反在通達之國,若存若亡乎?」
(Dai Jinren) said: "If you know to let your heart wander in the limitless and then turn back to look at the states where people travel, do they seem to exist or not exist?"
君曰:「然。」
The ruler said: "They do seem so."
曰:「通達之中有魏,於魏中有梁,於梁中有王。王與蠻氏,有辯乎?」
(Dai Jinren) said: "Within the travelable lands there is Wei, within Wei there is Liang, and within Liang there is the king. Is there any difference between the king and the Man clan?"
君曰:「無辯。」
The ruler said: "No difference."
客出而君惝然若有亡也。
The guest went out, and the ruler was dazed as though he had lost something.
客出,惠子見。君曰:「客,大人也,聖人不足以當之。」
After the guest left, Huizi went in to see him. The ruler said: "That guest is a great man; a sage is not enough to match him."
惠子曰:「夫吹莞也,猶有嗃也;吹劍首者,吷而已矣。堯舜,人之所譽也;道堯舜於戴晉人之前,譬猶一吷也。」
Huizi said: "When one blows a pipe there is still a booming sound; when one blows the hilt of a sword, there is only a faint whistle. Yao and Shun are praised by people; to praise Yao and Shun before Dai Jinren is like a single faint whistle."
孔子之楚,舍於蟻丘之漿。其鄰有夫妻臣妾登極者,子路曰:「是稯稯何為者邪?」
Confucius went to Chu and lodged at the house of a seller of drinks at Ant Hill. In the neighboring house a husband and wife and servants had climbed onto the roof, and Zilu said: "What are all these people crowding for?"
仲尼曰:「是聖人僕也。是自埋於民,自藏於畔。其聲銷,其志無窮,其口雖言,其心未嘗言,方且與世違而心不屑與之俱。是陸沈者也,是其市南宜僚邪?」
Zhongni said: "These are the sage's servants. They bury themselves among the people and hide themselves at the field edge. Their voices are gone and their aims are limitless; though the mouth speaks, the mind has never spoken, and they are going against the world while their hearts disdain to be with the world. These are men who sink on dry land. Is this Shinan Yiliao?"
子路請往召之。
Zilu asked to go and summon him.
孔子曰:「已矣!彼知丘之著於己也,知丘之適楚也,以丘為必使楚王之召己也,彼且以丘為佞人也。夫若然者,其於佞人也羞聞其言,而況親見其身乎!而何以為存?」
Confucius said: "Never mind! He knows that Qiu is prominent in himself and knows that Qiu has come to Chu, and thinks that Qiu will surely have the King of Chu summon him, and he will take Qiu for a flatterer. Such a man is ashamed even to hear the talk of flatterers, how much more to see them in person! How would you get him to stay?"
子路往視之,其室虛矣。
Zilu went to look, and the house was already empty.
長梧封人問子牢曰:「君為政焉勿鹵莽,治民焉勿滅裂。昔予為禾,耕而鹵莽之,則其實亦鹵莽而報予;芸而滅裂之,其實亦滅裂而報予。予來年變齊,深其耕而熟耰之,其禾蘩以滋,予終年厭飧。」
The border warden of Changwu asked Zi Lao: "In governing, do not be careless; in ruling the people, do not be perfunctory. Long ago I planted grain, and plowed carelessly, and the crop repaid me carelessly; I weeded perfunctorily, and the crop repaid me perfunctorily. The next year I changed my method, plowed deeply and harrowed thoroughly, and the grain grew thick and abundant, and I ate my fill all year."
莊子聞之曰:「今人之治其形,理其心,多有似封人之所謂,遁其天,離其性,滅其情,亡其神,以眾為。故鹵莽其性者,欲惡之孽,為性萑葦蒹葭,始萌以扶吾形,尋擢吾性;並潰漏發,不擇所出,漂疽疥癕,內熱溲膏是也。」
Zhuangzi heard of it and said: "People now govern their bodies and put order in their hearts, and many are like what the warden said, fleeing from Heaven, leaving their nature, destroying their feeling, and losing their spirit, in order to join the crowd. So those who are careless with their nature, the harm of desire and hatred, are like reeds and rushes to nature: at first they sprout to support the plant's form, and then they pull out the plant's nature; they burst out and break open all together, without choosing where they come from, as in floating abscesses, scabs, boils, inner heat and diabetes."
柏矩學於老耼,曰:「請之天下遊。」
Bo Ju studied with Lao Dan and said: "Please let me go and travel under Heaven."
老耼曰:「已矣!天下猶是也。」
Lao Dan said: "Never mind! The world is the same as here."
又請之,老耼曰:「汝將何始?」
He asked again, and Lao Dan said: "Where will you begin?"
曰:「始於齊。」
(Bo Ju) said: "I will begin with Qi."
至齊,見辜人焉,推而強之,解朝服而幕之,號天而哭之,曰:「子乎!子乎!天下有大菑,子獨先離之,曰莫為盜!莫為殺人!榮辱立,然後覩所病;貨財聚,然後覩所爭。今立人之所病,聚人之所爭,窮困人之身使無休時,欲無至此,得乎!」
On reaching Qi, he saw an executed man, pushed him upright, took off his court robe and covered him, and cried out to Heaven and wept for him, saying: "Alas! Alas! The world has a great disaster, and you alone were first to meet it. They say do not be a thief! Do not kill! Honor and disgrace were set up, and then people saw what they suffer from; goods and wealth were gathered, and then people saw what they fight over. Now they set up what people suffer from and gather what people fight over, wearing out people's bodies so that they have no time to rest; to want to avoid ending up like this, is it possible!"
「古之君人者,以得為在民,以失為在己;以正為在民,以枉為在己;故一形有失其形者,退而自責。今則不然,匿為物而愚不識,大為難而罪不敢,重為任而罰不勝,遠其塗而誅不至。民知力竭,則以偽繼之,日出多偽,士民安取不偽!伕力不足則偽,知不足則欺,財不足則盜。盜竊之行,於誰責而可乎?」
(Bo Ju continued:) "The rulers of old put gain on the people and loss on themselves; put what is right on the people and what is crooked on themselves; so if one body failed to fulfill its form, he withdrew and blamed himself. Now it is not so; they hide things and make fools of those who do not know, make difficulties large and blame those who dare not, make duties heavy and punish those who cannot bear them, make roads long and execute those who do not arrive. When the people know their strength is exhausted, they continue with deceit; as deceit rises daily, how can scholars and people avoid being false! When strength is insufficient they deceive, when knowledge is insufficient they cheat, and when wealth is insufficient they steal. With theft so widespread, whom should one hold to account?"
蘧伯玉行年六十而六十化,未嘗不始於是之而卒詘之以非也,未知今之所謂是之非五十九非也。萬物有乎生而莫見其根,有乎出而莫見其門。人皆尊其知之所知,而莫知恃其知之所不知而後知,可不謂大疑乎!已乎!已乎!且無所逃。此所謂然與,然乎?
Qu Boyu, in his sixtieth year, had changed sixty times, and never failed to begin by thinking something right and end by rejecting it as wrong, not knowing whether what is now called right is not what he rejected at fifty-nine. Myriad things have where they are born but their roots cannot be seen, and have where they come out but their gates cannot be seen. People all honor what their knowledge can know, but do not know that they come to know by relying on what their knowledge does not know; can this not be called great doubt! Enough! Enough! And there is nowhere to flee. What is called so, is it really so?
仲尼問於大史大弢、伯常騫、狶韋曰:「夫衞靈公飲酒湛樂,不聽國家之政;田獵畢弋,不應諸侯之際;其所以為靈公者何邪?」
Zhongni asked the grand historians Da Tao, Bo Changqian and Xi Wei: "Duke Ling of Wei indulged in wine and pleasure and did not heed state affairs; he hunted with nets and arrows and did not attend the feudal lords' gatherings; for what reason was he called Ling?"
大弢曰:「是因是也。」
Da Tao said: "It is because of this."
伯常騫曰:「夫靈公有妻三人,同濫而浴。史鰌奉御而進所,搏幣而扶翼。其慢若彼之甚也,見賢人若此其肅也,是其所以為靈公也。」
Bo Changqian said: "Duke Ling had three wives who bathed together in one tub. The historian Qiu was received to present something, and held the silks and offered them with arms outspread. His negligence was that grave, yet he showed such respect when seeing a worthy man; this is why he was called Ling."
狶韋曰:「夫靈公也死,卜葬於故墓不吉,卜葬於沙丘而吉。掘之數仞,得石槨焉,洗而視之,有銘焉,曰:『不馮其子,靈公奪而裡之。』夫靈公之為靈也久矣,之二人何足以識之!」
Xi Wei said: "When Duke Ling died, divination for burial in the old tomb was inauspicious, but divination for burial at Shaqiu was auspicious. They dug several ren and found a stone outer coffin, washed it and saw an inscription saying: 'Not relying on his son, Duke Ling took it over and lives here' (here 'lives' means dwell, not distance). Duke Ling's being called Ling had been so for a long time, so how could those two know it!"
少知問於大公調曰:「何謂丘裡之言?」
Shao Zhi asked Da Gongdiao: "What is meant by the words of the neighborhood?"
大公調曰:「丘裡者,合十姓百名而以為風俗也,合異以為同,散同以為異。今指馬之百體而不得馬,而馬係於前者,立其百體而謂之馬也。是故丘山積卑而為高,江河合水而為大,大人合併而為公。是以自外入者,有主而不執;由中出者,有正而不距。四時殊氣,天不賜,故歲成;五官殊職,君不私,故國治;文武大人不賜,故德備;萬物殊理,道不私,故無名。無名故無為,無為而無不為。時有終始,世有變化。禍福淳淳,至有所拂者而有所宜;自殉殊面,有所正者有所差。比於(太)[大]澤,百材皆度;觀於大山,木石同壇。此之謂丘裡之言。」
Da Gongdiao said: "A neighborhood is made by joining ten surnames and a hundred names into one custom, joining differences to make a sameness and scattering sameness to make differences. Now if one points to a horse's hundred parts, one does not get a horse, yet when a horse is tethered in front of us, it is by setting up its hundred parts that we call it a horse. So hills and mountains accumulate lowness to become high, rivers and streams join waters to become great, and the great man joins everything to become impartial. So what enters from outside has a host and is not seized; what goes out from within has correctness and is not refused. The four seasons have different qi, and Heaven does not favor any, so the year is completed; the five offices have different duties, and the ruler does not favor any, so the state is governed; the civil and military great men are not favored, so virtue is complete; the principles of myriad things differ, and the Way does not favor any, so it has no name. Having no name, it does nothing, and doing nothing leaves nothing undone. Times have endings and beginnings, and ages have changes. Calamity and blessing are earnest, and what most goes against has its fitness; each sacrificing itself to a different side, what has something right also has something wrong. Compared with a great marsh, all timber has its measure; looking at a great mountain, trees and stones share the same altar. This is called the words of the neighborhood."
少知曰:「然則謂之道,足乎?」
Shao Zhi said: "Then is it enough to call it the Way?"
大公調曰:「不然。今計物之數,不止於萬,而期曰萬物者,以數之多者號而讀之也。是故天地者,形之大者也;陰陽者,氣之大者也;道者為之公。因其大以號而讀之則可也,已有之矣,乃將得比哉!則若以斯辯,譬猶狗馬,其不及遠矣。」
Da Gongdiao said: "No. Now to count the number of things does not stop at ten thousand, yet we agree to call them the ten thousand things, using a name of large number to refer to them. So Heaven and Earth are the greatest of forms, yin and yang are the greatest of qi, and the Way is their common ground. By its greatness one may call and speak of it and that is enough; since this name already exists, what is there to compare it with! If one used this to argue, it would be like dog and horse, falling far short."
