King Hui of Liang, Part One

孟子見梁惠王。王曰：「叟不遠千里而來，亦將有以利吾國乎？」

Mencius went to see King Hui of Liang. King Hui said: "Venerable sir, you have come from a thousand li away; surely you have something to bring to profit my state?"

孟子對曰：「王何必曰利？亦有仁義而已矣。王曰『何以利吾國』？大夫曰『何以利吾家』？士庶人曰『何以利吾身』？上下交徵利而國危矣。萬乘之國弒其君者，必千乘之家；千乘之國弒其君者，必百乘之家。萬取千焉，千取百焉，不為不多矣。苟為後義而先利，不奪不饜。未有仁而遺其親者也，未有義而後其君者也。王亦曰仁義而已矣，何必曰利？」

Mencius replied: "Why must Your Majesty speak of profit? There is only benevolence (the heart that loves people and extends to all things) and righteousness (doing what is proper to the matter at hand). If Your Majesty says 'How can I profit my state?', the grandees will say 'How can I profit my family?', and the officers and common people will say 'How can I profit myself?' When high and low contend for profit, the state is in danger. In a state of ten thousand chariots, the one who murders its ruler must be from a family of a thousand chariots; in a state of a thousand chariots, the one who murders its ruler must be from a family of a hundred chariots. To take a thousand from ten thousand, or a hundred from a thousand, is not a small share. If righteousness is put last and profit first, they will not be satisfied without seizing. There has never been a benevolent man who abandoned his parents, nor a righteous man who put his ruler last. Let Your Majesty speak only of benevolence and righteousness; why must you speak of profit?"

孟子見梁惠王，王立於沼上，顧鴻鴈麋鹿，曰：「賢者亦樂此乎？」

Mencius went to see King Hui of Liang. The King was standing by a pond, looking at the wild geese and swans and the deer, and said: "Do worthy men also enjoy this?"

孟子對曰：「賢者而後樂此，不賢者雖有此，不樂也。《詩》云：『經始靈臺，經之營之，庶民攻之，不日成之。經始勿亟，庶民子來。王在靈囿，麀鹿攸伏，麀鹿濯濯，白鳥鶴鶴。王在靈沼，於牣魚躍。』文王以民力為臺為沼。而民歡樂之，謂其臺曰靈臺，謂其沼曰靈沼，樂其有麋鹿魚鼈。古之人與民偕樂，故能樂也。《湯誓》曰：『時日害喪？予及女偕亡。』民欲與之偕亡，雖有臺池鳥獸，豈能獨樂哉？」

Mencius replied: "Only after one has become a worthy man can one enjoy this; an unworthy man, even if he has these, cannot enjoy them. The Book of Songs, in the 'Ling Tai' of the Greater Odes, says: 'He began to plan the Spirit Terrace, he laid it out and built it; the multitude set to work on it, and in a few days it was done. He began to plan without hurry, but the multitude came like sons. The king is in the Spirit Park, where the does lie at rest, the does are sleek and glossy, and the white birds are gleaming. The king is at the Spirit Pond, and the whole pond is full of leaping fish.' King Wen used the people's strength to build his terrace and pond, yet the people rejoiced in it, calling his terrace the Spirit Terrace and his pond the Spirit Pond, and delighting that he had deer, fish and turtles. The people of old shared their joy with the people, and so were able to enjoy it. The 'Oath of Tang' in the Book of Documents says: 'When will this sun perish? I would gladly die with you.' If the people wished to die together with him, even if he had terraces, ponds, birds and beasts, how could he enjoy them alone?"

梁惠王曰：「寡人之於國也，盡心焉耳矣。河內兇，則移其民於河東，移其粟於河內。河東兇亦然。察鄰國之政，無如寡人之用心者。鄰國之民不加少，寡人之民不加多，何也？」

King Hui of Liang said: "I have given my whole mind to the state. When Henei suffered famine, I moved its people to Hedong and carried grain from Hedong to Henei. When Hedong suffered famine, I did the same. When I look at the governments of neighboring states, none takes such pains as I do. Yet the neighbors' people do not grow fewer and mine do not grow more; why is this?"

孟子對曰：「王好戰，請以戰喻。填然鼓之，兵刃既接，棄甲曳兵而走。或百步而後止，或五十步而後止。以五十步笑百步，則何如？」

Mencius replied: "Your Majesty is fond of war, so let me use war as an illustration. The drums beat loudly and the blades have crossed; soldiers throw away their armor and drag their weapons as they run. Some run a hundred paces before stopping, and some run fifty paces before stopping. What if the one who ran fifty paces laughed at the one who ran a hundred?"

曰：「不可，直不百步耳，是亦走也。」

King Hui said: "That would not do; he simply did not run a hundred paces, but it is running all the same."

曰：「王如知此，則無望民之多於鄰國也。不違農時，谷不可勝食也；數罟不入洿池，魚鼈不可勝食也；斧斤以時入山林，材木不可勝用也。谷與魚鼈不可勝食，材木不可勝用，是使民養生喪死無憾也。養生喪死無憾，王道之始也。五畝之宅，樹之以桑，五十者可以衣帛矣；雞豚狗彘之畜，無失其時，七十者可以食肉矣；百畝之田，勿奪其時，數口之家可以無飢矣；謹庠序之教，申之以孝悌之義，頒白者不負戴於道路矣。七十者衣帛食肉，黎民不飢不寒，然而不王者，未之有也。

Mencius said: "If Your Majesty knows this, then do not hope that your people will be more numerous than those of neighboring states. If the farming seasons are not interfered with, there will be more grain than can be eaten; if fine nets are not put into deep pools, there will be more fish and turtles than can be eaten; if axes enter the forests at the proper times, there will be more timber than can be used. When grain, fish and turtles cannot all be eaten and timber cannot all be used, the people will have no regret in nourishing the living and sending off the dead. No regret in nourishing the living and sending off the dead is the beginning of the kingly way. Give a homestead of five mu and plant mulberries on it, and those of fifty can wear silk; do not neglect the breeding seasons of chickens, piglets, dogs and pigs, and those of seventy can eat meat; do not take away the farming seasons from a field of a hundred mu, and a family of several mouths can avoid hunger; carefully maintain the teaching of the schools, repeatedly explaining the meaning of filial piety and brotherly respect, and gray-haired people will not carry loads on their backs or heads along the road. When those of seventy wear silk and eat meat and the common people are neither hungry nor cold, there has never been a ruler who did this and yet did not become king.

狗彘食人食而不知檢，塗有餓莩而不知發；人死，則曰：『非我也，歲也。』是何異於刺人而殺之，曰：『非我也，兵也。』王無罪歲，斯天下之民至焉。」

(Mencius continued:) "When dogs and pigs eat the people's food and you do not know to restrain them, and there are people dead of hunger on the road and you do not know to open the granaries; when people die and you say 'It was not I, it was the harvest', how is this different from stabbing a man to death and saying 'It was not I, it was the weapon'? If Your Majesty does not blame the harvest, the people of the world will come to you."

梁惠王曰：「寡人願安承教。」

King Hui of Liang said: "I wish to receive your instruction with a quiet mind."

孟子對曰：「殺人以梃與刃，有以異乎？」

Mencius replied: "Is there any difference between killing a man with a stick and killing him with a blade?"

曰：「無以異也。」

King Hui said: "There is no difference."

「以刃與政，有以異乎？」

(Mencius asked:) "Is there any difference between killing with a blade and killing with government?"

曰：「無以異也。」

King Hui said: "There is no difference."

曰：「庖有肥肉，廐有肥馬，民有飢色，野有餓莩，此率獸而食人也。獸相食，且人惡之。為民父母，行政不免於率獸而食人。惡在其為民父母也？仲尼曰：『始作俑者，其無後乎！』為其象人而用之也。如之何其使斯民飢而死也？」

Mencius said: "There is fat meat in the kitchen and fat horses in the stables, yet the people have the look of hunger and in the countryside there are people dead of starvation; this is leading beasts to eat people. Even when beasts eat each other, people are disgusted by it. If one is the parent of the people and yet in governing cannot avoid leading beasts to eat people, how can he be called the parent of the people? Zhongni said: 'The one who first made clay figures for burial surely had no posterity!' Because he made them in the likeness of people and used them so. How then can one let these people die of hunger?"

梁惠王曰：「晉國，天下莫強焉，叟之所知也。及寡人之身，東敗於齊，長子死焉；西喪地於秦七百里；南辱於楚。寡人恥之，願比死者一灑之，如之何則可？」

King Hui of Liang said: "Jin was the strongest state under heaven, as you know, venerable sir. But when it came to me, in the east we were defeated by Qi, and my eldest son died there; in the west we lost seven hundred li of land to Qin; in the south we were humiliated by Chu. I am ashamed of this and wish to wash it clean once for the dead; what can be done?"

孟子對曰：「地方百里而可以王。王如施仁政於民，省刑罰，薄稅斂，深耕易耨。壯者以暇日修其孝悌忠信，入以事其父兄，出以事其長上，可使制梃以撻秦楚之堅甲利兵矣。彼奪其民時，使不得耕耨以養其父母，父母凍餓，兄弟妻子離散。彼陷溺其民，王往而徵之，夫誰與王敵？故曰：『仁者無敵。』王請勿疑！」

Mencius replied: "A territory of a hundred li square suffices for becoming king. If Your Majesty practices benevolent government toward the people, reduces punishments and fines, lightens taxes, has them plow deep and weed diligently, and lets the able-bodied use their spare time to cultivate filial piety, brotherly respect, loyalty and trustworthiness, serving their fathers and elder brothers at home and their elders abroad, you can have them take up sticks and strike the strong armor and sharp weapons of Qin and Chu. Those states take away their people's farming seasons so that they cannot plow and weed to support their parents, and their parents freeze and starve and brothers, wives and children are scattered. They are dragging their own people into a pit, and if Your Majesty goes to attack them, who can oppose you? So it is said: 'The benevolent have no enemy.' I beg Your Majesty not to doubt it!"

孟子見梁襄王。出，語人曰：「望之不似人君，就之而不見所畏焉。卒然問曰：『天下惡乎定？』吾對曰：『定於一。』

Mencius went to see King Xiang of Liang. When he came out, he said to others: "From a distance he did not look like a ruler, and close up I saw nothing in him to inspire awe. He suddenly asked: 'How can the world be settled?' I answered: 'It will be settled by being unified.'

『孰能一之？』對曰：『不嗜殺人者能一之。』

(Mencius continued his account:) 'Who can unify it?' I answered: 'One who has no taste for killing people can unify it.'

『孰能與之？』對曰：『天下莫不與也。王知夫苗乎？七八月之間旱，則苗槁矣。天油然作云，沛然下雨，則苗浡然興之矣。其如是，孰能御之？今夫天下之人牧，未有不嗜殺人者也，如有不嗜殺人者，則天下之民皆引領而望之矣。誠如是也，民歸之，由水之就下，沛然誰能御之？』」

(Mencius continued his account:) 'Who will follow him?' I answered: 'None under heaven will fail to follow him. Does Your Majesty know about rice seedlings? In the seventh and eighth months, if there is drought, the seedlings wither. Then if heaven richly gathers clouds and sends down abundant rain, the seedlings spring up vigorously. When this happens, who can hold them back? Now among those who shepherd the people of the world, there are none who have no taste for killing people; if there were one who had no taste for killing people, all the people of the world would stretch their necks to look for him. If it were truly so, the people would turn to him like water flowing downhill, in a rush, and who could stop them?'"

齊宣王問曰：「齊桓、晉文之事可得聞乎？」

King Xuan of Qi asked: "May I hear about the affairs of Duke Huan of Qi and Duke Wen of Jin?"

孟子對曰：「仲尼之徒無道桓、文之事者，是以後世無傳焉。臣未之聞也。無以，則王乎？」

Mencius replied: "The disciples of Zhongni did not speak of the affairs of Huan and Wen, so they were not handed down to later generations. I have not heard of them. If you do not mind, shall we speak of the kingly way?"

曰：「德何如，則可以王矣？」

King Xuan said: "What kind of virtue is needed in order to become king?"

曰：「保民而王，莫之能御也。」

Mencius said: "One who protects and soothes the people and becomes king cannot be opposed."

曰：「若寡人者，可以保民乎哉？」

King Xuan said: "Can someone like me protect and soothe the people?"

曰：「可。」

Mencius said: "You can."

曰：「何由知吾可也？」

King Xuan said: "How do you know that I can?"

曰：「臣聞之胡齕曰，王坐於堂上，有牽牛而過堂下者，王見之，曰：『牛何之？』對曰：『將以釁鐘。』王曰：『舍之！吾不忍其觳觫，若無罪而就死地。』對曰：『然則廢釁鐘與？』曰：『何可廢也？以羊易之！』不識有諸？」

Mencius said: "I heard from Hu He that the King was sitting in the hall when someone led an ox past below the hall. The King saw it and said: 'Where is the ox going?' The man answered: 'It is to be used to consecrate a bell with its blood.' The King said: 'Let it go! I cannot bear its frightened trembling, as if it were going to the place of death without guilt.' The man answered: 'Then shall we abolish the consecration of the bell?' The King said: 'How can it be abolished? Replace it with a sheep!' I do not know whether this happened."

曰：「有之。」

King Xuan said: "It did."

曰：「是心足以王矣。百姓皆以王為愛也，臣固知王之不忍也。」

Mencius said: "This heart is enough to make you a king. The people all thought Your Majesty was stingy, but I knew from the first that Your Majesty could not bear it."

王曰：「然。誠有百姓者。齊國雖褊小，吾何愛一牛？即不忍其觳觫，若無罪而就死地，故以羊易之也。」

King Xuan said: "Yes. There are indeed such people. Though Qi is small, how could I begrudge a single ox? It was just that I could not bear its frightened trembling, as if it were going to the place of death without guilt, so I replaced it with a sheep."

曰：「王無異於百姓之以王為愛也。以小易大，彼惡知之？王若隱其無罪而就死地，則牛羊何擇焉？」

Mencius said: "Do not blame the people for thinking Your Majesty stingy. You used a small animal in place of a large one; how would they know? If Your Majesty pitied it for going to the place of death without guilt, what difference is there between an ox and a sheep?"

王笑曰：「是誠何心哉？我非愛其財。而易之以羊也，宜乎百姓之謂我愛也。」

King Xuan laughed and said: "What heart was this, really? It was not that I begrudged the wealth. But since I replaced it with a sheep, it is right that the people say I am stingy."

曰：「無傷也，是乃仁術也，見牛未見羊也。君子之於禽獸也，見其生，不忍見其死；聞其聲，不忍食其肉。是以君子遠庖廚也。」

Mencius said: "There is no harm; this is precisely the method of benevolence: you saw the ox and had not seen the sheep. The gentleman toward birds and beasts, having seen them alive, cannot bear to see them die; having heard their cries, cannot bear to eat their flesh. So the gentleman keeps away from the kitchen."

王說曰：「《詩》云：『他人有心，予忖度之。』夫子之謂也。夫我乃行之，反而求之，不得吾心。夫子言之，於我心有慼慼焉。此心之所以合於王者，何也？」

King Xuan was pleased and said: "The Book of Songs, in the 'Clever Words' of the Lesser Odes, says: 'Another man has a heart, and I can fathom it.' This describes you, Master. I did this thing, and then turned back to seek my own heart, and could not find it. When you spoke, my heart was moved with feeling. Why does this heart accord with the kingly way?"

曰：「有復於王者曰：『吾力足以舉百鈞』，而不足以舉一羽；『明足以察秋毫之末』，而不見輿薪，則王許之乎？」

Mencius said: "Suppose someone reported to Your Majesty: 'My strength is enough to lift a hundred jun,' yet not enough to lift a single feather; 'my eyesight is enough to see the tip of an autumn hair,' yet he cannot see a cartload of firewood; would Your Majesty accept that?"

曰：「否。」

King Xuan said: "No."

「今恩足以及禽獸，而功不至於百姓者，獨何與？然則一羽之不舉，為不用力焉；輿薪之不見，為不用明焉，百姓之不見保，為不用恩焉。故王之不王，不為也，非不能也。」

(Mencius continued:) "Now your kindness is enough to reach birds and beasts, yet your benefit does not reach the common people; why is this? If a feather is not lifted, it is because one does not use one's strength; if a cartload of firewood is not seen, it is because one does not use one's eyesight; if the common people are not soothed, it is because one does not use one's kindness. So Your Majesty's not becoming king is a matter of not doing it, not of being unable."

曰：「不為者與不能者之形何以異？」

King Xuan said: "What is the difference in appearance between not doing and being unable?"

曰：「挾太山以超北海，語人曰『我不能』，是誠不能也。為長者折枝，語人曰『我不能』，是不為也，非不能也。故王之不王，非挾太山以超北海之類也；王之不王，是折枝之類也。老吾老，以及人之老；幼吾幼，以及人之幼。天下可運於掌。《詩》云：『刑于寡妻，至於兄弟，以御於家邦。』言舉斯心加諸彼而已。故推恩足以保四海，不推恩無以保妻子。古之人所以大過人者無他焉，善推其所為而已矣。今恩足以及禽獸，而功不至於百姓者，獨何與？權，然後知輕重；度，然後知長短。物皆然，心為甚。王請度之！抑王興甲兵，危士臣，構怨於諸侯，然後快於心與？」

Mencius said: "To take Mount Tai under one's arm and leap over the North Sea, and say to others 'I cannot', is truly being unable. To break off a twig for an elder, and say to others 'I cannot', is not doing it, not being unable. So Your Majesty's not becoming king is not of the kind of taking Mount Tai under the arm and leaping the North Sea; Your Majesty's not becoming king is of the kind of breaking off a twig. Respect and care for your own elders, and extend it to the elders of others; cherish your own young, and extend it to the young of others. Then the world can be turned in the palm of your hand. The Book of Songs, in the 'Si Qi' of the Greater Odes, says: 'He set a model for his wife, extended it to his brothers, and with it governed the family and the state.' It means simply taking this heart and applying it to others. So extending kindness is enough to secure the four seas, and not extending kindness is not enough to protect even one's wife and children. The reason the ancients greatly surpassed others was nothing else than that they were good at extending what they did. Now your kindness is enough to reach birds and beasts, yet your benefit does not reach the common people; why is this? Weigh a thing, and then you know whether it is heavy or light; measure a thing, and then you know whether it is long or short. All things are like this, and the heart most of all. I beg Your Majesty to measure it! Or is it that Your Majesty must raise armies, endanger your officers and ministers, and make enemies of the lords before your heart is content?"

王曰：「否。吾何快於是？將以求吾所大欲也。」

King Xuan said: "No. How could I be content with that? It is in order to seek what I greatly desire."

曰：「王之所大欲可得聞與？」王笑而不言。

Mencius said: "May I hear what Your Majesty greatly desires?" King Xuan laughed and did not speak.

曰：「為肥甘不足於口與？輕煖不足於體與？抑為采色不足視於目與？聲音不足聽於耳與？便嬖不足使令於前與？王之諸臣皆足以供之，而王豈為是哉？」

Mencius said: "Is it that rich and sweet food is not enough for your mouth? That light and warm clothing is not enough for your body? Or that bright colors are not enough for your eyes to look at? That sounds are not enough for your ears to hear? That favorite attendants are not enough to command before you? Your ministers are all able to supply these; is Your Majesty doing it for these things?"

曰：「否。吾不為是也。」

King Xuan said: "No. It is not for these."

曰：「然則王之所大欲可知已。欲闢土地，朝秦楚，蒞中國而撫四夷也。以若所為求若所欲，猶緣木而求魚也。」

Mencius said: "Then what Your Majesty greatly desires can be known. It is to open up more land, to have Qin and Chu come to court, to preside over the Middle Kingdom and soothe the four barbarians. To seek this desire of yours by such actions is like climbing a tree to look for fish."

王曰：「若是其甚與？」

King Xuan said: "Is it as bad as that?"

曰：「殆有甚焉。緣木求魚，雖不得魚，無後災。以若所為，求若所欲，盡心力而為之，後必有災。」

Mencius said: "Perhaps worse. In climbing a tree to seek fish, even if you do not get fish, there is no later disaster. If you use such actions to seek such a desire, and do it with all your heart and strength, there is sure to be calamity afterward."

曰：「可得聞與？」

King Xuan said: "May I hear about it?"

曰：「鄒人與楚人戰，則王以為孰勝？」

Mencius said: "If the people of Zou fought the people of Chu, who does Your Majesty think would win?"

曰：「楚人勝。」

King Xuan said: "The people of Chu would win."

曰：「然則小固不可以敵大，寡固不可以敵眾，弱固不可以敵彊。海內之地方千里者九，齊集有其一。以一服八，何以異於鄒敵楚哉？蓋亦反其本矣。今王發政施仁，使天下仕者皆欲立於王之朝，耕者皆欲耕於王之野，商賈皆欲藏於王之市，行旅皆欲出於王之塗，天下之慾疾其君者皆欲赴愬於王。其若是，孰能御之？」

Mencius said: "Then the small certainly cannot oppose the large, the few certainly cannot oppose the many, and the weak certainly cannot oppose the strong. Within the seas there are nine territories each a thousand li square, and Qi, when gathered together, holds one of them. To subdue eight parts with one part, how is that different from Zou opposing Chu? Why not return to the root? Now if Your Majesty issues orders and practices benevolence, so that all officials under heaven wish to stand in Your Majesty's court, all plowmen wish to plow in Your Majesty's fields, all merchants wish to store their goods in Your Majesty's markets, all travelers wish to travel on Your Majesty's roads, and all in the world who hate their own rulers wish to come and complain to Your Majesty, then who could oppose you?"

王曰：「吾惛，不能進於是矣。願夫子輔吾志，明以教我。我雖不敏，請嘗試之。」

King Xuan said: "I am dull and cannot advance to this point. I hope the Master will assist my aim and teach me clearly. Though I am not quick-witted, please let me try it."

曰：「無恆產而有恆心者，惟士為能。若民，則無恆產，因無恆心。苟無恆心，放闢，邪侈，無不為已。及陷於罪，然後從而刑之，是罔民也。焉有仁人在位，罔民而可為也？是故明君制民之產，必使仰足以事父母，俯足以畜妻子，樂歲終身飽，凶年免於死亡。然後驅而之善，故民之從之也輕。今也制民之產，仰不足以事父母，俯不足以畜妻子，樂歲終身苦，凶年不免於死亡。此惟救死而恐不贍，奚暇治禮義哉？王欲行之，則盍反其本矣。五畝之宅，樹之以桑，五十者可以衣帛矣；雞豚狗彘之畜，無失其時，七十者可以食肉矣；百畝之田，勿奪其時，八口之家可以無飢矣；謹庠序之教，申之以孝悌之義，頒白者不負戴於道路矣。老者衣帛食肉，黎民不飢不寒，然而不王者，未之有也。」

Mencius said: "To have no constant means and yet keep a constant heart is something only the scholar can do. As for the common people, if they have no constant means, they have no constant heart. If they have no constant heart, there is nothing they will not do in dissolute, perverse, lawless acts. When they have fallen into crime and are then punished, this is trapping the people. How can a benevolent man in office trap the people? So an enlightened ruler fixes the people's livelihood so that above it suffices to serve their parents and below it suffices to support their wives and children, so that in good years they are well fed all their lives and in bad years they escape death. Then he drives them toward goodness, and so the people follow him easily. Now the people's livelihood is fixed so that above it does not suffice to serve their parents and below it does not suffice to support wives and children, so that in good years they suffer all their lives and in bad years they do not escape death. They are afraid even that saving themselves from death is not enough; how can they have time to cultivate ritual and righteousness? If Your Majesty wishes to carry it out, why not return to the root? Give a homestead of five mu and plant mulberries on it, and those of fifty can wear silk; do not neglect the breeding seasons of chickens, piglets, dogs and pigs, and those of seventy can eat meat; do not take away the farming seasons from a field of a hundred mu, and a family of eight can avoid hunger; carefully maintain the teaching of the schools, repeatedly explaining the meaning of filial piety and brotherly respect, and gray-haired people will not carry loads on their backs or heads along the road. When the old wear silk and eat meat and the common people are neither hungry nor cold, there has never been a ruler who did this and yet did not become king."